Interview with Bill Irwin, 8 February 1983

You got one deck you always bring with you?

This particular deck I like. I got one more from Vegas that's a new one, yeah, I like that one too.

These are antiques, these cards, isn't that funny?

They are.

[Inaudible]

[Inaudible]

[Inaudible]

[Inaudible]

[Inaudible]

[Inaudible]

Oh, you're making a trip.

Yes.

[Inaudible]

What's that, I'm sorry?

Plans failed around having a child at this point.

Plans have failed?

[Inaudible]

[Inaudible]

Are you going to see her too?

I hope so, in March, yeah.

Good. And one sister?

One sister.

We're starting out all right.

What's that?

We're starting out okay.

Okay.

[Inaudible]

You were excellent last night.

[Inaudible]

We can shut it off for a minute.

Give me 22 cards. You can turn them over.

Okay. Pull them out of anywhere, Kathy, or?

I think, but not all together.

Uh-huh.

Random.

Random.

Is that a special deck or?

Yeah, I don't know. Antique cards, she says. She reads these, and she's got another deck from Vegas.

You've had a few little plans fail. Relative-wise, not career-wise.

Mmm, yeah.

Yes. You've had a few little disappointments. Money has not been what it should be for you.

It's not been what?

As good as it should be.

Can't concur with you more.

Yes, oh good. Oh good. Now this is business. It's going to change for the better. You have a few people jealous of you. You've got to---you've got to find out.

Mhm, okay.

Par for the course though.

That's sudden good news and God's card. This is very good.

God's card is business?

Yes. Very good and that's good in around a month or two.

All right, good.

Definitely. Then a sandy-haired man older than you could be of help, whether he's an agent or whatever he is. He could be good, definitely. That's a big talk.

Big talk?

Are you signing a contract?

[Inaudible]

Don't know much about it yet.

Yeah. That's good.

No? It's going to turn out to be something good.

You think so?

Yeah. He's older.

Mhm, yeah, he is.

[Inaudible]

This one here?

That's right. You're moving. Are you moving to New York? Or the coast? It's a move.

Good question.

I don't think you're going to the coast.

No?

I think you'll make more here than any place.

Yeah, I think this is where---

[Inaudible]

Really?

Yeah.

[Inaudible]

Gonna hit! Yeah, that's what it looks like.

That's what it looks like. '83 is your year.

Ah, that's good.

Without doubt. I mean, it's going to be pretty good, definitely.

This one comes up outside of columns and it's a special one.

Yes. It came out very good.

Now let me do your business talent card. You see, the average person's business is a nine of diamonds, that's just a layman. But the person with talent like you have is a seven of clubs. That's how we can pull around back. It's like contract work, you know?

I see, I see.

That's how we can tell which is going to happen to you. The future is excellent. But it's taken a while to gel and now it's going to start and you're going to be surprised.

Yeah.

It's good news.

It is. It takes time, everything takes time. You have to catch on. Now, I need 20 cards from you. And then I'll circle them. So this is strictly business.

Strictly business?

Strictly business.

Yes.

[sound of pulling cards]

Strictly.

That's good. It's a big talk, you may get some response from last night too.

Yeah? Oh, hope so.

I have a very strange feeling. Yeah. Very good. Two days to two weeks, good news. By the 28th of this month, things should be pleasant for you.

Yeah?

Yeah.

The 28th.

I don't know what that is; that's in the past so we'll let that one go. That's in the past. This is your heart's wish this year.

Heart's wish?

[Inaudible]

Mhm.

This is very good news, I think things are going to start for you! Yes. And this man here, you're very good for him. You are very good for him.

It's me again.

It's you again.

Again, you have little tempers here and there, disagreements every now and then. But in the end, excellent cards. And that's a big move. I think you're gonna start moving your residence. I mean, you gotta make up your mind where you want to be. You can't be Billy to Jack you know, it's no good for you?

Billy to Jack? You're right.

Really, it's a move. '83 is your chance to get ahead. So you have to do it. '82 was nothing. Look at this! And this is real good. '83 is very good for you, and that's all the good things around.

What did we just come up with there? Those last two.

Things are gonna happen by the 18th through the 28th of this month. Very good. March is terrific for you, you're going to be way ahead of the game. When is your trip in March? Or are you going in February?

Short trip in February to Minneapolis, and then a longer trip to San Francisco in March.

March, yeah. Comes out very good.

Comes out well?

Very good. Now are you a writer?

Yes.

[Inaudible]

Really?

Oh, yeah, that's terrific. And good---very good writer. Excellent, that's very difficult to do. Up to now, you've had very good cards. Now do you want to ask me anything? I think I see a very big improvement.

Do you?

Yeah, you haven't been getting the breaks. Just when you were going to hit, something always intercepted.

Uh-huh, uh-huh. It's worked out for the better, maybe, but---

I think so too.

But they're due now, maybe.

Slow but sure.

Do I want to ask you anything? Well... how about, uh... aside from success, about---

Happiness?

Yeah.

Marital?

Well, just call it a lightness of heart.

Okay. In other words, you wanna see if you're going to get your wish. Your heart's wish, I mean---

Yeah, maybe even know what my heart wishes is.

Yeah. 19 cards.

[Pulling cards]

How long have you been reading cards?

A long time. My grandmother read cards; we're from Ireland, you know? Mary reads them, my kid. My mother read.

Do you use tarot cards, too, or---?

Yeah, but they're very sad. They come out very---they depress you. They're depressing. Very depressing.

Where's your family from in Ireland?

Galway.

Galway? I've been there once.

It's beautiful, huh?

Yeah, it's beautiful. I think that's 19.

You're undecided about what you want, at this point. And I think it has a lot to do with you're a little upset about money, too. Yeah, that doesn't add to your love life. It's in the cards again, this guy loves you. Your sister's in the cards. Oh, you're going to have a very good wife! '84, there's your wife.

Really? That's my wife?

Well, that's the only one in the deck that could be Chinese, or similar to that or whatever she is.

Okay.

Isn't that funny?

That is interesting.

Yeah. She came in very good.

Came in there, did you say, in '84?

No, she's very happy with you. But '84 will be better---there's a change around her, too. There's gotta be some kind of a change, definitely. This is a house later on. I think you want to buy a little house, settle down. You were undecided some time about your marriage.

Mhm.

You still are, that's very sad. What, are you thinking of separating or something? I'm so shocked!

Are you really, Kathy?

Yes.

I thought that's what the card says.

No, I am. I didn't think that I'd get a divorce in here.

Is that what you're getting?

You're not happy though, you're not happy. Now you're going to have to change, you know what I mean?

Uh-huh.

I never expected, no, I never expected to pull the divorce.

That one here?

Yeah, that's what it is. It's a very dramatic thing, you know. You've got to think about this before...

Oh, yeah, no I'm doing a lot of thinking.

Yeah, but you're not happy, you know.

Yeah. Mhm. That's what you're getting here.

Oh god, yeah. They're not good cards.

Did you go through a divorce, Kathy, ever?

Yes, several. It's heart rendering but it's sometimes for the better, if you can't make it together. I'm not seeing it that you're making it together now.

You're not seeing that?

No. She's unhappy, she doesn't see enough of you. That's one of the things. She's an unhappy girl. And then you're turning away from her, so that means you're not happy. You're not completely satisfied so it's ridiculous to carry it through. It leads up to you now. Give it a lot of thought, you know. But even if you give it a lot of thought, you're not going to stay with her.

Is that what you get?

Exactly what I get.

Because it's not your wish. It's is your wish, and it's---these cards are---not good cards. Plus it affects your health a little bit, and you can't do that. Yeah. Nourish, you're not allowed---it's not good for your aura. And you know, when you're torn like this it's no good. So you have to make up your mind one thing or the other. In '83 you have to decide what you want. You should know completely by May.

You think so?

That's what you get? This, uh, there was, at least at that point, there was some happiness for her, somewhere.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of happiness. She too has changed a little bit. I mean, you know? I wouldn't dwell on it but if I were you I wouldn't---I wouldn't exactly stay with this.

Mhm, mhm.

Does she know this is the way you feel?

Yeah, we've been---

Discussing it.

Yeah, since Christmas.

It really threw me for a loop. I thought it was such a happy thing.

You what?

I thought it was such a happy marriage, I really did.

I know, when we used to come in here.

Yeah, it was a whole different scene. And I'm picking stuff up from you lately that you're not yourself, you know?

We haven't, we haven't seen each other.

Definitely not. Is there any other thing you want to ask me? That's troubling you?

Okay, Kathy, might as well go for gold, let's talk about a child. Or children.

Children. You can never have just one. That's children. Eleven cards.

[Pulling cards]

I feel more responsibility on picking these cards than any of the previous ones.

Yeah.

Seems quite alike.

Does it help to know someone or is it even better, is it easier when you don't know someone at all?

No, it's the same thing.

Same thing.

Is there any J around you? That would be good for you. J or an M?

J or an M?

Yeah, in business. Or an R.

An R is good in business. J, M, R.

[Inaudible]

No. Although, my agent is the daughter of one of those---

Oh my goodness. That's interesting. Children. Later, much later.

Later?

This is how it works. Good results. You're married again. Marry another. American girl. Let me see how many children you'll have. It'll be a little while until you make up your mind what you want.

Mhm.

Definitely. See, this is definitely a divorce. Three children in the house. Very easy, if you think you can afford them, you better start working right now.

[Laughter]

You better start right now. Definitely, that's your nerves, yeah. You gotta watch those nerves, yeah. The only thing troubling you is money. And that would be the only thing keeping you from having a child. I don't think your wife was anxious to have a child, was she?

Yes, she was.

At one point.

Yeah.

That's your wish.

That's the wish, there?

In other words, you have a child. Two children or three. But I know you'll have children, because I know you'd love to have a child. And you know somebody already? Another girl?

Mm, no.

Well then you're going to meet someone. She has brown hair.

Yeah?

Why are you blushing if you don't know anybody?

[Laughter]

Sometimes you gotta play cards close to the chest.

[Laughter]

Her cards.

Her cards.

Very good. Now let me see what's gonna happen in '83, for you. Just at random, we'll see '83. Around this I need 20 cards. This should be your year.

Yeah?

Definitely. Now I know why you need the trunk so much. They always call you the man with the trunk.

The man with the trunk? Who calls me that?

Oh, the kids.

Bobby's students?

Yeah, Faisel's brother.

Yeah, Joe. I know his name but he calls me the guy with the trunk.

Was Faisal lost last night?

No, Faisal's always spaced out.

That's his health.

It's nice and early. I think, you know, 9 o'clock is tremendous time.

Yeah, it's pretty early. Late, late night. I don't know why I never... This may be indicative of something. I'm having trouble counting them. 3, 6, 9, 11, 12, 13... 16, 17, 18, 19, 20.

Let's do this shit.

83!

So far it's starting off good for you and that's a good sign. If it starts off bad, that's a bad sign.

Mmm.

Yeah, that's all good. Unexpected phone call you got at work. That's going to be good. That's your wife. That's unexpected call from her too. Definitely. She's unsure what she wants to do. This is you, God's card in '83. You've got to make up your mind this year. What you want. This is your trip.

Mmm.

You've got three trips ahead. All told. For now. This is that light man that might invite you to London or something. I mean, there is an overseas trip later.

Really?

I don't know whether it's to Hong Kong or London or where, but you're going to go overseas. Definitely. This is some very good news by June of this year. Very good. Definitely. This is a contract. Unexpected contract. Very few people bring in this contract, unless you're in show business or something, they never bring in this.

It's the contract.

Yes. It's excellent. That's your marriage. Well, that's a lawyer. Have you gone to a lawyer already? You're thinking about it, though.

Mm, no, not really.

This is a brand new young guy that can be very good for you. I don't know who he is. Oh, you know the man that worked with you last night. He was so good.

Mhm.

Yeah, one of those men.

Mhm, yeah, with the glasses.

This is a very good thing too. Don't lose him. This is the money card. You got the money card, finally, that's good. That's mom. Surprise. You're going to see her! Does she know it?

Eh, not for sure, yeah.

Let her know, let her know. Some good news by the 18th of this month. Very nervous. You know you're getting nervous, so you've got to stop. This is a nervous card.

It's a nervous card.

Yeah.

Yeah, we brought up that two---

Yeah---

---of hearts before.

You have to make up your mind what you want so that you don't get distraught, because you can't. You're not allowed. No, you can't. So just figure out what you want to do as soon as you can, instead of procrastinating.

Instead of procrastinating.

Yeah, that's what you're doing. And you have a hell of an '80s, man.

Good.

Let's make a lot of money. You have all kinds of money to give me. Give me, give me, give me. Give me the money, Bill.

[Laughter]

I mean, I have put a little time in with Calico lately. Calico's Kathy's cat.

It's a money cat.

It's a money cat. It's a good cat. A nice cat.

Now cut the three for you. One more cut, three.

[Inaudible]

No gray?

No.

It's good---it's a good card.

Just might be able to swing something for you. But you'll be going overseas too. You'll be doing a lot of work.

Yeah.

Probably won't talk to us anymore. That's what's going to happen.

That's not going to happen, Kathy. As long as you've got some rooms open.

But your cards are terrific. You've got to believe me. And when something hits, you're going to come back and tell me. I know you will.

Oh yeah. I'll be here daily. Thanks!

Very good.

Well, that was---

Are you traveling after the 15th or the 13th in February?

After.

Do you have time to do a meeting hour sometime?

Gee, I don't, I've got somebody coming in.

Another time.

Oh yeah. Any day. Just that I've got this little girl---

Yeah, you've got somebody coming in. And what did you say, 82?

Yeah.

It may be the person's desire to be read. That's her strongest impetus, thing to work from, her strongest suit, so to speak. Did you ever read the book World of Wonders by Robertson Davies? Novel you should read sometime. It's about a magician, but he does all sorts of things like that. It's part of a trilogy by Davies. He's a Canadian novelist. Very funny writer.

I didn't know that at all. For a second I thought he was somebody who had written---

He's written novels and plays and also lots of other things as well, but mostly novels. And this is from a trilogy called the Deptford Trilogy. Fifth Business was the first. But it follows a whole group of people through America, Europe, and that particular one is about a magician who becomes a world-famous celebrity on the basis of his magic and mind reading.

I don't know about it all.

Somebody has the movie rights to it, and they're trying to film it.

The title of that book is that novel is---

World of Wonders. And actually, what's his name? The fellow who did The Seven Sense Solution, Nicholas Meyer, bought the rights to the whole trilogy and is making a movie called "Conjuring" based on the three books. If he can get the money.

That's an interesting project.

It's also funny. Kathy was saying, talking about an agent last night who called---

Your sandy-haired older man?

It's a woman. She's a woman.

Oh yeah, you mentioned her.

But not an American woman. Such an interesting blend of adventuresome statements. But also sort of coaxing through. Some of what little I know about carnival work, weight guessing and that kind of entertainment, have a lot to do with that psychology. Someone's straightforwardly telling you something and you just have to, I guess, trust it somehow.

But also somewhat changing it to suit one's response. With your wife, I gather she did.

Yes, she did. She changed that.

[Inaudible]

[Inaudible]

So I thought, ooh, Kathy, are you trying to tell me something? But I don't think she was. I think she was just sharing an old joke.

[Phone ringing]

[Whirring]

You watched the show last night first?

[Inaudible]

Things I did, too.

Such as what?

Michael's reaction to the Shakespeare, to Shakespeare used as a crucifix. Reaction shots of you, yeah, were suddenly very funny.

I'd like to talk to you about that sometime. Mike is an old, old friend. An actor, sort of an uneven development, but incredible. Difficult, the two of us together are difficult.

Maybe that's why it's so funny. There was a real antagonistic thing set up, which is so funny.

I just got a wonderful letter from him which sort of laid to rest a lot of tension, with some reflection. We just... thought differently of things, but... Different people in watching him, some of them just get it, just the right strokes. They had seen the other guy do it, but some poeple... it's almost a litmus test or something, you know some taste sour and some taste sweet or bitter, but very pronouncedly.

What did you think of his performance? Just off the cuff without any...

I was starting to feel my disattention of guilt and complexity of feeling. Because a lot of what he does is only... He can only be as good as the writing is. And I did most of the writing, and built everything around myself and created his persona in order to bounce off a little. It sort of troubles me a little.

I think it's quite good, and it set up that whole sort of threat which you need. You really felt that it was in fact a chase, which is why, for example, one thing that I did again last night is---is that trampoline going, it's not there, it's not in the way. A gag obviously didn't set up, but still, because of the good build-up---

The chase is really real with Michael chasing, I'll tell you. I'll tell you from my point of view, even watching it, there's a really ferocity there. It's like we worked on, it's a hard thing to do. But often what starts happening is people indicate, whcih totally falsifies the chase when he's running. It's, to me, like I better keep going.

So it's really there, which is why when you hide behind the piano that again it's a strong laugh, it's a hiding sanctuary.

Exactly. And Doug's sort of going out on a limb and then later...

Yeah, sure. Actually, that's something we all laughed at. A new and maybe stronger than I ever laughed at.

It's all a trick.

Don't come to this baby.

I'm trying to steal a few of George Carle's moves. I was going to call him today. I want to make sure he's going to be there for a while.

Have you met him at all?

Yeah. He shot the shit with me a couple times. Interesting little guy, and in some ways, he's a little self-conscious with each other, we don't have a whole lot to say, but... he's a really interesting character. A very good man. Probably be around, you'll want to see him.

Yeah, you should. I want to mention him to Pat.

How did your thing with Pat go?

He was a very nice, very gracious, very charming man. He was, to my relief, kept very general. Kathy's right on. Dark-haired older man, not gray.

He struck me as possibly sandy-haired.

Sandy-haired possibly.

Did he have a project at all that he was doing?

He's got a couple different things, but it's all very much down the line in due process. I guess he sized up is what I wanted to hear. I didn't want to be pressured into anything. Doing this musical, that---a young guy named Ken Robbins is creating a musical. It's an interesting premise, but I don't know anything about it and they don't really know much about me, I wouldn't say. Just between you and I, the public never really knows what's happening until it's on the stage. And I can tell you, we were supposed to be there once.

Is he sorry about that?

I think so. He's never become effusively apologetic, but he did, under my agent's pressure, he sent both Michael and Doug a $500 because of the scheduling mishap. That was the thing that came back to him. We can't just slide around after guys who have careers. I didn't want any money out of it but I would have been pissed, $1000 is an apology.

Money talks. Money talks.

Money does talk.

George works with a hat like this and he does great things with it, I haven't been able to really make one of these behave properly. *inauduible* for me is something that is funny, but it's not behavioral in the way that a hat like that is. Although actually his does not look like this grotesque. His is... Larry Kazomi works with a hat, the same design but it's a different shape, it's more---it's shallower. Very much in shape. Not like mine. I'll just backtrack. But my head's the wrong shape.

Turn your head.

Well, the hat has to be round. And my head's oblong. But George and Larry have to sort of cover their heads so that, uh, there's this, I don't know, it's more likely to fall right on the head.

Weight in it makes it much more regular.

Oh, it's heavy.

Yeah. Yeah.

It's big too.

It is big. I mean, it's big probably. Maybe it's too big. But the little thing that Larry does with this hat is that he and I used to do versions of an act together---tossing it like this like a Frisbee and then catching it.

[Sound of Bill catching hats]

It's nice, isn't it? It's a nice effect. He used to catch and throw four of them to me. He did this whole, from the top of the show, with his little red hat of my design. He came out in the middle of the show, "I can't find my red hat," and I'd be out in the audience and [loud clapping sound] It was great. So we did this whole long-distance dialogue, like, "C'mon brother, give me my red hat," and I said, "Well, try one of these," and I'd throw him three others. On a good day, with the wind permitting and the proper altitude, he'd catch all three. Red hat! On occassion, it's a very nice night, I tried to hit a better shot.

One of the things that seemed to, seemed to get better and better as I watched is the marionette that went across.

You know, that did get a lot better. In fact, it wasn't marionette. It wasn't marionette when I first did it.

Uh huh.

Fine. I'd like to find something somewhere between this hat and that. This one is just too flimsy.

[Sound of Bill tossing hats]

Flimsy.

George Carle does hat moves too?

Yeah, his are, his is a hat like this and they have his own flavor. It's interesting, I was looking in the mirror thinking, in some ways we're kind of opposite. My character movement is very---a lot of it is down below, this low, and a lot of stillness up here, a lot of things going on down here. Or up here. He's very... about this tall, very short man. And his torso, in many ways stays very still, very, kind of, spree. I can't get this quality out. I've watched him twice.

Below the waist?

Well, it's a sprightliness even though he's... 20 years my senior. Maybe 10, 15 years my senior. I feel like in many ways he's got more bounce than I do in a lot of what he does.

[Whistle]

[Phone ringing]

When he's been working his hat so long, it's just gorgeous. He, looking dead ahead at the audience, towards everyone, goes---

[Inaudible]

Do people really watch him though? I mean after the strippers or?

[Inaudible]

Oh, shoot.

There is really a nice height here, and there are a lot of stages, but there is a lot of height---and I think what's nice about this is you throw it up, and you pretty much know when it can come down and it gives you lots of time to do something. I'm working on something else that I can't get anywhere. Suspender gets stuck somewhere over the trousers. Throw the hat up, way up, fix the trousers just in time to catch it.

Jacket.

Oh yeah, the arm is caught in the jacket. Oh, shoot.

Oh, shoot.

[Tap dancing]

[Tap dancing and scatting]

I gotta get down to the basics. That's what I want to do in the workshop. I spend a lot more time, really discreetly, working with isolation. Isolating movement in different places.

[Tap dancing and scatting]

Do you write music?

Do I write?

Write music. Yeah, that song you sang. That little song.

[Inaudible]

That's where Kathy's technique became the most transparent.

[Inaudible]

[Laughter]

[Tap dancing]

I'm getting my arms moving a lot. I'm dancing.

You watch Caesar on Saturday Night Live?

Yeah.

Dude---

I saw most of it. I didn't think it was very good at all.

I thought it was very sad. That's crazy.

I just wanted to... I missed the first part, it was the first couple minutes. Actually, what had the most going was I thought the beginning of what I saw, is Caesar just talking to them, in some bit---he does this routine with now becoming then, now becoming was, becoming gonna be.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, it was his book, yeah.

It's a little sentimental, but there's something behind it. What I thought was sad was the rest of the show. He was a victim of that show. What, the writing was awful, and I would guess if he knew it...

Whoever, Mel Brooks or whoever, in other words.

Yeah, yeah.

Because you rely on your stuff, I guess.

He's also much less than a lot of people, but it's true. He is caught in his era. It's very hard to...

Although, on the other hand, you see those, some of the tapes or whatever, the broadcasting, you can say, it's still terribly funny.

Well, they're terribly funny. They're terribly funny, but I think one of the reasons they're funny is because their, the sort of sensitivity in watching transports you to that time. And you're seeing it in that context where it's largely because of the writing, but partly because he wasn't sure how to do it.

It seems like he did the silent movie and also the, there was The German Professor.

Yes.

Neither of which were funny at all, and yet both of those appear very frequently over there. In other words, if you're writing a silent movie, it's funnier. And the other actors have fun, I think, over there. I mean, you may be right about the, you know, frozen or victim of time, but I think maybe---in different circumstances---

Yes. Well, the fact that he would have benefited from different circumstances and the circumstance seems to be illustrative of the fact that he did that show. I tell you what I find the saddest and broke my heart. Watching those old shows and Caesar's Hour and the one that came before The Admiral... he would be on for nearly 90 minutes, and you never got the feeling that he was struggling or he seemed to be coming out, and there, on Saturday Night Live, and much as any other host I've ever seen, including those cute little girls... I mean that's something. It's an indictment of something.

Did he and Eddie Murphy do anything earlier on? I know some---

They should've done something.

They should've. Well, when I tuned in, Eddie Murphy was standing next to him, and the rest of the cast looked like they had just met.

I was very touchy with Eddie Murphy, wanted to embrace him at the end.

It's one of those shows where he gave me a warning that he wasn't gonna be that good. He's wearing his dungarees besides.

He is, right?

He's wearing his dungarees, it's like, his leisure suit.

Oh, yeah. Yeah.